Roof Restoration or Replacement? The Real Cost of Decision-Making in Building Maintenance

Episode Transcript

Mollie (Host)
Hi everyone and welcome to {Brief}ly Speaking, the SEH podcast where we take complex infrastructure topics and break them down in just a few questions. I'm your host, Mollie. Today we're talking about a fork in the road decision that many facility managers face at some point. When a roof starts failing, do you restore it or bite the bullet and replace it? Pick wrong and you could waste money, create safety risks, or even shorten the life of your building. To help us unpack this, I'm joined by Joe Cobb, the Director of Operations at RAM Companies. He is a master thermographer and a licensed commercial pilot with over 30 years of experience in infrared imaging. Throughout his career, he has scanned more than 500 million square-feet of roofing, holds multiple patents, and has worked with major names, you might know some of them, like NASA, Boeing, Disney, and the US Postal Service. So Joe, welcome to {Brief}ly Speaking.

Joe (Guest)
Thanks, Mollie. It's great to be here. Love to talk about infrared.

Mollie (Host)
Wonderful. Well, let's just dive right in then. So why do so many people default immediately to replace the moment that they see leaks or damage in their roofs?

Joe (Guest)
Sure. And that is common. And it's understandable when you think about all of the unknowns that someone has with a roof. And like you listed earlier, the potential harms from not doing that action, right? We tend to move towards the safer issue when it comes to something as critical as the roof. So it's the unknowns that kind of push us in that direction. The big ones are how long has the roof been compromised? Has it been a long time? Is it a small thing, a big thing? You don't really know at that point. That also leads to how far has the problem spread? So am I looking at a small issue or is it really a big expense? And the fear behind all that is wasting good money trying to fix something that has already gone too far, right? It's too far gone and you want to do that patch and repair, but it's really too late.

Mollie (Host)
Yeah. So what are some of the biggest myths that you've run into then about roof restoration?

Joe (Guest)
I think the first one is that you can't get a warranty that we're replacing it with something that's not sufficiently protected by the manufacturer or the installers and that it's just some kind of patch that won't live up to what you need it to do. This is not true. The warranties can be issued on a restoration. In fact, after decades of successful projects with several of the top manufacturers, they now offer full warranties if RAM does a scan on the roof and the damaged areas are removed. So the restoration will be just as good, brand new materials and often less than half the cost of replacing the whole roof.

Related Service: SEH Asset Management

Mollie (Host)
That is actually surprising to me. I mean, that you can get a warranty on something that is just restored. That's an awesome benefit. So we said this in the intro, but you've seen hundreds, thousands, a lot of roofs up close. What's the most surprising thing diagnostics can reveal that the naked eye, maybe yours, but everyone else's just can't catch.

Joe (Guest)
Sure, and it has been a lot of fun because we, every year as the technology progresses, we find more and more interesting things for our clients to resolve, more problems that they weren't even expecting to find. The most significant one is that our sensitivity has gotten to the point where we can find problems the size of your fist underneath ballast. So things that a experienced roofer might walk past 100 times, we're going to see and be able to pull that out for you. But on a different note or more fun or interesting is we've been able to find heat and cold gaps inside the roof for our refrigerated facilities that our clients are trying to keep food or flowers refrigerated. We're able to help them now not just find the moisture in the roof, but also where they have insufficient installation and they're not able to hold that energy inside the building.

Mollie (Host)
When we find these problems for them and we are helping them and we do the scans, we hand over the results. What does that look like? Is it charts? Is it thermal images? A giant long report? What can they expect to get back?

Joe (Guest)
So we had a big breakthrough in the mid-1990s, and wow do I feel old now, where we actually patented a process called the blended process. It involves several steps of analyzing the thermal imagery in such a way that it can be then colorized so that you can easily see what's going on. I think the best analogy is to talk about an X-ray or the MRI. And we've all seen those when the doctor holds that up and we can identify the bones, maybe a few other things pretty easily, but the doctor starts pointing out to other stuff and even with their advice, it's still not 100% obvious what's going on. With this type of technology, you get a visual image, an infrared image, and this patented blended image that now allows you to see firsthand and work with your team without us even present to see and identify where the problems are and what potential processes are going forward to fix them.

Mollie (Host)
Joe, I'm going to go a little rogue here. So can you walk me through the process of how you guys are collecting all this data? We're talking about the data. We jumped right into that. And I do think that's super important. But I think for I'm a visual person, can you walk me through from start to finish of, well, take off to finish, I guess we could say.

Joe (Guest)
Yeah, it's quite simple, actually. The technology is getting so good that we can collect the data in a lot of different ways. So RAM is kind of agnostic when it comes to the methodology. We have our preferred methods, but we can walk on the roof. So we can dispatch a person with a handheld imager, an experienced roofer who understands all the ins and outs of how roofs are built, who can actually scan while walking the roof. We can also fly over the roof with a drone. So we have some of the best drones on the market and skilled drone pilots. We can deploy those pretty much everywhere in the country. And then we also have airplanes across the country and even some in South America and then some other parts of Europe. We deploy the technology that best fits the client's needs and the cost profile for the project and the cost benefit. So it could be any one of those, but same scenario happens, we fly over during the day and take a high resolution image. So it's not an older picture you got from the internet. It's current, up to date and very high resolution. You'll be able to see cracks in the parking lot, things like that. Then we fly over again on a separate flight after sunset. That's how the infrared technology actually works. It sees the heat coming out at night and it's the heat from those wet spots and those breaks and the insulation and things like that the camera can see. and we record those. We bring those back into the lab and analyze the visual and the infrared and then put those together into that blended image we talked about earlier.

Mollie (Host)
That's really interesting. I mean, I think it's comforting, I would feel from a client's perspective to know that there's options. It's not a one-size-fits-all type of problem solution. And that does kind of lead me into my next question here. So Imagine I'm a school superintendent with a tight budget and a leaking roof. How would you walk me through the decision to restore versus replace?

Joe (Guest)
We've actually gotten to a point where we're agnostic on that as well. We'll help you understand both options. So we're not going to walk you to one or the other. We provide both options for our clients. There's a lot of secondary and tertiary issues that come into replacing a roof or maintaining a roof? Are they going to tear the building down in a few years? Do they plan on upgrades? Are they going to sell? All those kinds of things are things that we can't know, but we certainly want to provide our clients with all the information. So a good plan to restore the roof often helps you with costs because you're not buying as much material. to replace all the only, you only have to replace the parts that are bad. So there's a definite advantage there. But the replacement cost is also sometimes it's just a structure of how the building's budgeted. So it might make sense more to replace it now and take care of it before you go on to some big project or install some fancy new lab equipment.

Mollie (Host)
No, that's great. So you could really, or I guess a client could really come into this totally blank slate, have no idea where to start. And it's just a conversation. You help walk them through the questions to ask, what to look for, how to plan ahead, and then together create that plan for how to fix it.

Joe (Guest)
That's a great way to put it. really does come back to that first question of eliminating the unknowns. Once we get up there and we find out exactly where the problems are, what percent of the roof, how many square foot of the roof, That helps you identify possible fixes and it gives you all the options. Maybe it's just a quick patch and repair on a location that is damaged because you know in a few years you do want to tear that building down. So let's choose that cheap option to keep it operational before we go off with a bigger one.

Mollie (Host)
And I'm sure in some cases, if you're on the lucky side, it might not be as bad as you think. And then it could just be like a quick fix, like you were saying, where they had intended for it to be this huge redo of the roof. But maybe that's not what's necessary.

Joe (Guest)
That's what we call a home run at RAM. We literally get goosebumps when we get those because we get clients who are all ready to write that $1,000,000 check to replace the roof and they're already preparing the board of directors for this expense. I think the bottom line and when we show them that yes, the roof is a little bit older, It's getting close to the end of the warranty. And yes, you do have leaks in two or three spots, which they already know they have, but that's the extent of the damage. It's really not much bigger than that. So repairing those three small locations, maybe two, three, 5% of the roof could get back to 100% dry and safe. And they're just thrilled at that point that they don't have to spend all that money.

Related Service: RAM Companies

Mollie (Host)
That's the best case scenario. Now, We're going to talk about the opposite side of things here. When it's really, really clear that restoration just isn't going to cut it, how do you know when to make that call?

Joe (Guest)
One of the big things is cross confirming with other technologies. So we'll do the infrared scan. And when a roof hits probably around 33 to 40% moisture, it's getting close to not feasible to restore. It's a better plan at that point to just replace the whole thing. So we tend to tell clients that somewhere around 40% you're looking of moisture damage in the roof. You're looking at 100% the cost to replace the roof because a contractor is going to look up and say, I don't want to tie your new roof into this old weak roof. So either they'll either pass on the job or it'll be very expensive and they won't offer a warranty. So you want to keep it in that 5 to 10% damage range. And theoretically, a lot of these roofs could go on for twice or three times their normal lifespan. And then you're looking at a retrofit or restore.

Mollie (Host)
Yeah, it really just comes down to the clarity of making that decision. If you're going to spend that amount of money, you want to know that you're doing it for a reason. I love that you have kind of that percentage line where you're like, this is really where it's not going to be beneficial for you anymore in the long run. So that makes sense. And now we're going to talk a little bit more about numbers here. Where are the hidden costs? Or are there hidden costs that owners maybe overlook when they go straight to replacement?

Joe (Guest)
There are, absolutely. And it's RAM's job to put all of the costs on the table for them. So there's the obvious cost of contracting and materials and things like that. But we will also make sure that the client understands there's going to be an interruption to operations. We'll assess their facility and identify that there's not a great place to stage equipment. We'll need many, many, many square foot of materials put out there, and we need space to do that. If it's tight on parking, this could severely interrupt your operations. So we'll need to find a way to make sure that doesn't happen. Replacing a roof is also noisy. If you're operating inside that facility, we can work around that, get the guys to work second or third shift, but that obviously adds some cost. It's also messy work. You're trying to destroy this roof over someone's head at the same time they might try to be working in there or producing something. We have ways to protect with interior protection like tarps and nets and things like that. But that's definitely something that some manufacturers especially need to plan on.

Mollie (Host)
I don't know why I didn't think about it. And I guess I would assume many clients didn't either about if you're working on a roof and you're replacing it, it's going to be during the same work hours that your company is working. So that makes a lot of sense as an added cost. And just another thing too that you guys pose to ask and then another discussion to have on how to work around that. I'm really glad you brought that up. Sustainability these days is a huge factor in every industry. How does a restore first mindset tie into some bigger environmental goals?

Joe (Guest)
Sure, we have a saying that our president came up with many decades ago that it doesn't matter which green you are, environmentalist or capitalist, we can help you. Not only will we help you save some green money, but we'll help you save some trees by not replacing materials that are still in good shape. The insulation holds its R-value (resistance to heat flow) for nearly forever. So as long as it doesn't get wet or compressed or otherwise damaged, it will still work for many, many, many roof lifetime. You can replace the membrane on the top and keep that insulation in there. No sense in having them manufacture all new insulation, transport it to the site and then install it while you're throwing out perfectly good insulation into a landfill that could literally be in there for hundreds of years. We're thrilled about the fact that we've saved millions of tons of insulation and other roofing material from going into landfills where they're just going to sit forever and not be very useful.

Mollie (Host)
And I would assume that would save costs for the client.

Joe (Guest)
Absolutely. The insulation itself can be, depending upon where you're located, how thick you want your insulation. It can be half the cost of the new roof. So if you can approach a project and say, we're going to keep all or maybe just 80% of the insulation, we're going to replace the damaged insulation, you can reduce your cost by literally half. And we've seen roofs that we've replaced for 70% reduction costs by being able to keep all the other materials and just replacing the membrane. Again, keeping or getting, acquiring the same 20-year warranty from the manufacturer that is the standard.

Mollie (Host)
That's amazing. So you've clearly been doing this for a while. You've, I'm sure, seen a lot. Can you share a story of a client who thought replacement was inevitable, but then ended up taking a different path? We touched on this a little bit earlier, but I'd love to hear your firsthand experience with it.

Joe (Guest)
Sure. And that's, again, like I said, that's our home runs. We love to be able to show a client how they can re-budget those dollars that they were planning to replace, maybe just repair this one and maybe repair two or three roofs in addition to that in their asset portfolio. My favorite one is probably the USPS, United States Postal Service, they came to us, they suspected they were just replacing on a regular basis and they weren't being efficient. So they asked us to scan 180 facilities across the country that they had budgeted for replacement the following year. So just one year out, they were going to replace all 180. We were able to show them that 130 of them did not need to be replaced. Of those, 25 of them only needed some minor patch and repair work. But because those flaws were creating such a problem on their operations, we were able to just do a small patch and repair and extend the life of that roof another decade.

Mollie (Host)
That's amazing. I bet you got all of your mail expedited for the rest of your life, Joe, after that one. They were like, green light this guy because he saved us a lot of money. That's wonderful. That is insane that it was that large of a span that they thought that they were going to have to fix. And you were able to go in and say, actually, no, you don't have to do as much as you're thinking. So we're going to zoom out a little bit here. Who actually benefits the most from this kind of a service? Are we talking schools? I know I used that as my example earlier, but it could be hospitals, Fortune 500 headquarters, smaller companies, all the above. What are we thinking?

Joe (Guest)
The more square footage you have, the more we can benefit you. There's more dollars on the table for repair and maintenance and things like that are locked up in that large roof asset. So there's more potential for us to create bigger savings for you. But you're right, schools are a great one. They have a lot of large flat roofs. They're very geographically diverse. So they're over a whole county kind of thing and it makes it harder to get up on them to manage them, things like that. A great one for us is actually retail and specifically grocery stores. Some of them have 4,000 facilities across all 50 states. So it's very, very difficult for them to have one or two or even 10 people who can know what's going on with all those roofs. With our technology, we're able to fly and scan and get reports for them in just a few months. So thousands of facilities can be organized and then prioritized in order from worst to best so they know which dollars are going to get them the best bang for their buck, where to apply those dollars first. So the type of activity that's going on under the roof, that's more about what the client's criticality is. So obviously food production is a big one because they're very concerned about moisture getting in anything where people are inside. Some of the manufacturers are very sensitive to this because it can shut down operations. If you got a leak on a furnace, that's pretty dangerous and you're going to want to catch that long before it gets to that phase.

Mollie (Host)
If you could give every facility manager one rule of thumb to follow before calling in a roofing contractor, what would that be?

Joe (Guest)
We work with a lot of roofing contractors around the globe and some of them are incredibly talented. And I would tell everyone that if they have a roofing contractor that they've been working with and have had successful projects with them over the years, I would say keep working with them and yeah, reach out to them and communicate. regularly. They know your facility, they know what's on there, they know where you stand, and they'll be watching out for that roof. If you don't, you're going to want to contact three, five is better, to get multiple opinions and get them on the roof. That can be complicated and time consuming. We know for facility managers or tenants, or just owners. And so that's kind of where RAM jumps in. If you don't have that relationship, we definitely can help you build that. We'll also do the analysis and that diagnostic process so that the whole team can come together and outline what the costs are going to be to do that. So if you have someone, I would reach out to them. If they have a good understanding of your facility, great. We can add to that by teaching them what's inside the roof, not just how old it is and whether they have leaks.

Mollie (Host)
Yeah, no, that makes sense. That's great advice. If you have someone that you are comfortable with and knows your facility, keep rolling with them and RAM is there to help and add to that. Final question for today, looking ahead five, ten years, what do you think will be the biggest shift in how organizations approach roof maintenance decisions?

Joe (Guest)
It's a fun one because there's, you know, with AI and all the other technologies and our technology keeps advancing every year. There's so many new options and things in the roofing industry. I know it seems lame because it's a roof, right? How could there be cool technology? The big one I think is going to be subscriptions. And I know we have that with everything else, but subscribing to a dry roof. So It would flatten out your costs. You would have one number to pay monthly or annually and you could get various levels of service. You could get a complete handoff of your roofing asset and it would be their responsibility to watch the warranty, make sure you're in warranty compliance. It would be their responsibility to clean the gutters, clean the drains, cut back the trees even. And then also negotiate and build a new roof for you when it comes time. But they will do everything they can to make sure that roof stays dry and that it lasts a long time, which benefits everyone on every topic. Again, back to it's green for the capitalists. You're gonna save money in the long run. You're gonna not spend as much for small problems because you're going to fix them earlier. And then lastly, it's going to save all of us in the sense that it's going to keep all that material out of the landfill. We won't be asking for more materials to be built to replace perfectly good materials. So it benefits everyone on both sides of the fence.

Mollie (Host)
That is a wrap for today. Joe, thank you so much for cutting through the noise and showing us how data can take the guesswork out of these big roof decisions. For listeners, if you are staring down the restore or replace question or really just getting started, remember it's not just about the cost today. It's about strategy, sustainability, and overall the long-term health of your building. Thank you for tuning in to {Brief}ly Speaking. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Spotify and YouTube so you don't miss out on any of these wonderful insider tips in our future episodes.